Responses

Response From Joyce Courtney, Stonecroft CEO

----- Original Message -----
From: "Robbie Nelson"
To: "Christine Narloch"
Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 11:27 AM
Subject: Letter of February 23rd

Dear Christine,

I have received your letter of February 23rd and accompanying materials. Due to my involvement in a number of meetings as well as being out of town, I am only today able to respond to you. I note you requested a response by Friday, March 12th, so I want to be sure and get my response e-mailed today.

I appreciate your taking the time to write and share your concerns. It is obvious you spent a great deal of time and research before writing.

I can assure you that we strongly believe in God's Word and the Stonecroft Ministries has always endeavored to abide by the scriptures. We consider the following to be the scriptural foundation to Stonecroft's message: "For we do not preach ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake." (II Cor. 4:5) and "I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you were saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you*unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures." (I Cor. 15:1-4)

While we agree with your biblical documentation, it is not the emphasis we feel God has called us to share. In John 4, Jesus Christ presented the Gospel of salvation to the Samaritan woman without giving warning of judgment, mention of sin, hell or the wrath of God. Rather, He shared with her His offer of Living Water that would result in her never being thirsty again. Likewise, in John 8, Jesus explicitly said to the woman accused of adultery, "I do not condemn you." In Acts 2, Peter's sermon on the Day of Pentecost centered on Christ, not the law, sin, judgment or hell. We believe, as Mrs. Baugh did, the message God has asked us to share is how to get to Heaven and the difference Jesus Christ makes in the lives of those who invite Him to be Savior and Lord. This is the method of ministry that we have had for 60+ years and God has blessed.

As a ministry, we do all we can to see that those who have indicated making a decision are followed up and invited to a Bible study where they can grow in spiritual truth. When individuals choose not to continue in this way, we must trust the work of the Holy Spirit in their lives to seal the decision they have made.

In the brochure, SPEAKING FOR STONECROFT MINISTRIES, the statement made about not teaching or preaching refers to attitude and delivery. In John 3, we read the words of Jesus, "If I be lifted up..." Our presentations are to lift up Christ through personal testimony style, not through Bible teaching. We expect any one who speaks for Stonecroft Ministries to support his/her relationship to God with the Bible.

We appreciate your understanding of the scriptures and pray that you will continue to speak for us as the Lord provides opportunity. Thank you again for writing.

Joyce M. Courtney
Chief Executive Officer

RESPONSE #1 To Joyce Courtney From Christine

----- Original Message ----

From: "Christine Narloch"
To: "Robbie Nelson"
Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 2:09 PM
Subject: Re: Letter of February 23rd

Dear Joyce,

I want to thank you for taking the time to read the report and provide a response. I appreciate you sharing scriptural foundation to Stonecroft's method of evangelism. The scriptures pertaining to John 4, 8 and Acts 2, when read in context, are great examples to show the importance of the full counsel of God. I will prepare a brief explanation to expound on this. It's very interesting and encouraging to discover. You will receive it by Monday.

Could you also provide Stonecroft's scriptural foundation toward the following:

1. Stonecroft's use of Psychology in place of Law, Sin, Judgment & Hell? How does Psychology bring about the knowledge of personal sin leading to conviction and repentance, the judgment to come and the consequences of sin
which is Hell?

2. Stonecroft use of the Good News Bible which is a corrupt translation.

3. Stonecroft's goals to participate in ecumenicalism.

4. Do you have any thoughts about the CBPW/WC of Milwaukee follow-up results?

Thank you so much for your time.

Christine Narloch

Received No Response from Joyce Courtney

RESPONSE #2 - To Joyce Courtney From Christine Narloch
(My responses are within the text of her original e-mail response to me. Underlining added as emphasis.)

Why would Jesus offer the woman "the Gift of God" and "living" water in verse 10? The gift of God is salvation from sin and eternal death. Living water refers to the reviving and regenerating effects of the Holy Spirit. By Jesus offering her "living" water, he understands she's spiritually dead in her sin, needing to repent and believe. But first she must realize she's a sinner through conviction of sin showing she's broken the moral law. To prove this, Jesus goes on to "specifically" address the Samaritan woman’s sin:

John 4:16 "Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither. 17 The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband: 18 For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly. ¹⁹The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. ²⁰Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship." (Notice she was convicted of her sin of fornication and switched the subject.)

This Samaritan woman also had some scriptural knowledge, i.e. she perceived he was a prophet, she speaks of worship and she was expecting the Messiah. "The woman saith unto him, I know that Messiah cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things."

Jesus addressed her sin of fornication involves adultery; showing she broke the Seventh Commandment. By Jesus offering her "living water", he was addressing her spiritual condition of being dead to sin. Sin leads to spiritual death which is Hell. Noticed further down in the verses, Jesus stayed with the Samaritans to share more truths with them and many came to believe. (PTL! There is nothing more glorious - besides Christ himself- than to see a sinner repent and believe!)

Likewise, in John 8, Jesus explicitly said to the woman accused of adultery, "I do not condemn you." In context, let’s finish the verse you state… go, and sin no more.

Jesus addresses the adulterous woman’s sin in John 8:11 by telling her to "go and sin no more". She also already has the knowledge of law, judgment and death:

The women was caught in adultery which is breaking the seventh commandment

She was facing judgement according to the Law of Moses (Ten Commandments)
She was facing death by stoning; a consequence of her sin. (Deut 22:23)
Notice Jesus stooped down twice and wrote something on the ground with his finger. In the Old Testament, what did God write with his finger? In the New Testament, Jesus now writes something with his finger. As the Pharisees watched Jesus write on the ground, what could he have written to cause convicted consciences? The answers to both of these questions is the Ten Commandments. Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
In verses 10 & 11, "When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? 11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more." Notice she calls Jesus "Lord". This word "Lord" here means: he to whom a person or thing belongs, about which he has power of deciding; master, lord. Jesus' response to her was two fold... neither do I condemn thee AND go and sin no more. When a person repents, they are turning away from sin and sinning no more thus they are no longer under Jesus' condemnation. Romans 8:34 "Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God,"

In Acts 2, Peter's sermon on the Day of Pentecost centered on Christ, not the law, sin, judgment or hell.

What was the purpose of Peter’s sermon? It did center on Christ as you say. And what was purpose of Christ's death? To break the chains and penalty of sin which brought eternal death and that ALL men should some to the knowledge of the truth and be saved - from their sins, judgement and hell. Peter addresses the sin of the Jews; law and hell: Acts 2, Peter’s audience were "devout" Jews celebrating the giving of God’s law on Mt. Sinai. (They already knew the Law.) They found themselves suddenly witnessing believers who were filled with the Holy Spirit and were accusing these of drunkenness. Peter decides to address the unbelievers by sharing a number of things including:

Verse 21 "and it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Saved from what? Penalty of sin which is eternal death.)

"Jesus…verse 23 ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain"; (this relates to the sixth commandment of thou shall not kill.)

Verse 24 speaks of Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death; (eternal Hell)
³⁷Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?³⁸Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. ³⁹For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. ⁴⁰And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. ⁴¹Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. ⁴²And they continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

"Pricked" means an emotion of sorrow. These men were told to repent of their sin. Peter specifically talks about the sin of killing their Messiah. Conviction came over them and their hearts were pricked and humbly asking what they should do about it.

How many people in Stonecroft's audience understand they are a sinner? Aware their sin put Jesus on the Cross?

How many are aware their sin leaves them facing Judgement and Hell? Sin, Judgement and Hell are the very things Jesus died to save sinners from.

Some people already have the knowledge of law, sin, judgement and hell, mixed with false doctrine based on apostate church teachings. When they hear grace, it then makes sense.

Yet, America’s government sponsored secular, humanistic public education has made very sure to remove any teachings of God and the bible. Thus making our society unaware of God, law, sin, judgement, hell and grace.

Many are without knowledge of the Gospel based on the "full counsel" of God and this is why Jesus commands us to teach all things.

We believe, as Mrs. Baugh did, the message God has asked us to share is how to get to Heaven and the difference Jesus Christ makes in the lives of those who invite Him to be Savior and Lord. This is the method of ministry that we have had for 60+ years and God has blessed.

What is the message Jesus has asked us to share based on the Word of God?

Luke 24:44-49 ⁴⁴ And he (Jesus) said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.⁴⁵ Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,⁴⁶ And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:⁴⁷ And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.⁴⁸ And ye are witnesses of these things.⁴⁹ And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

Why would Jesus’ emphasis be so focused on repentance of sin? Because all face the penalty of their sin which is judgement and hell. Acts 10:42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.

Jesus Christ's death was to pay the penalty of our sin in order that we may escape judgement and Hell by forsaking sin and following Christ. Hebrews 9:27-28a And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

As a ministry, we do all we can to see that those who have indicated making a decision are followed up and invited to a Bible study where they can grow in spiritual truth. When individuals choose not to continue in this way, we must trust the work of the Holy Spirit in their lives to seal the decision they have made. In the brochure, SPEAKING FOR STONECROFT MINISTRIES, the statement made about not teaching or preaching refers to attitude and delivery. In John 3, we read the words of Jesus, "If I be lifted up..." Our presentations are to lift up Christ through personal testimony style, not through Bible teaching. We expect any one who speaks for Stonecroft Ministries to support his/her relationship to God with the Bible.

Jesus says to preach and teach as clearly stated early in my report. Are we to disobey Jesus? Also,

1 Thessalonians 1:15 "For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake."

1 Corinthians 1:17 ...but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

If the message chosen to "share" (versus preach and teach) is mixed of wisdom of mans words (psychology), the cross of Christ has no effect.

Our outreach results are proof of "no effect". Ask the Chairman before me also. Only a few desired to be in a bible study after a "so-called" decision. After Peter preached and taught the truth at Pentacost, many were added to their number and continued in the faith. Our results do not line up with the scriptures but most importantly Stonecroft’s message doesn’t line up with the scriptures. (We've had some believe and continue in the faith - which I address the reasons for this further down.... hang in there!)

We appreciate your understanding of the scriptures and pray that you will continue to speak for us as the Lord provides opportunity. Thank you again for writing. (I had been asked to be a speaker for Stonecroft.)

Was Mrs. Baugh's "choice of biblical emphasis" accurate? I do not doubt she was sincere and had a heart for the lost. I was too!! Yet, we can be sincerely wrong. Let's read the very words of a top evangelical leader who repented of his inaccurate understanding of the scriptures and has since died:

From "Heaven or Hell", by Bill Bright, New Life Publications, pp 32, 48 published July, 2002. (Founder and President of Campus Crusade for Christ)

"In His approximately 42 months of public ministry, there are 33 recorded instances of Jesus speaking about hell. No doubt He warned of hell thousands of times. The Bible refers to hell a total of 167 times. I wonder with what frequency this eternal subject is found in today’s pulpits. I confess I have failed in my ministry to declare the reality of hell as often as I have the love of God and the benefits of a personal relationship with Christ. But Jesus spent more of His time warning His listeners of the impending judgement of hell than speaking of the joys of heaven… I have never felt the need to focus on tell people about hell. However, as a result of a steady decline in morals and spiritual vitality in today’s culture and a growing indifference to the afterlife, I have come to realize the need for greater discussion of hell… I have thus come to see that silence, or even benign neglect on these subjects, is disobedience of souls is to be like a sentry failing to warn his fellow soldiers of impending attack."

Did Jesus speak of Hell? Note what Jesus Christ says about Hell in the scriptures...

"fire" Matt 7:19, 13:40, 25:41

"everlasting fire" Matt 18:8, 25:41

"eternal damnation" Mark 3:29

"hell fire" Matt 5:22, 18:9, Mark 9:47

"damnation" Matt 23:14, Mark 12:40, Luke 20:47

"damnation of hell" Matt 23:33

"resurrection of damnation" John 5:29

"furnace of fire" Matt 13:42, 50

"the fire that never shall be quenched" Mark 9:43, 45

"the fire is not quenched" Mark 9:44, 46, 48

"Where their worm dieth not" Mark 9:44, 46, 48

"wailing and gnashing of teeth" Matt 13:42, 50

"weeping and gnashing of teeth" Matt 8:12, 22:13, 25:30

"torments" Luke 16:23

"tormented in this flame" Luke 16:24

"place of torment" Luke 16:28

"outer darkness" Matt 8:12, 22:13

"everlasting punishment" Matt 25:46

As you can see, the gospel is more than preaching "grace". Grace makes no sense to someone who doesn't understand they are a sinner (having broken God’s law), facing judgement and Hell. The bible says we are "slaves" to sin. Christ came to set the captives free "from sin" so we could live free "in Christ". AMEN!

When speaking to an audience, we are unaware of their biblical knowledge and aren't to assume anything. In other words, some may already understand they are a sinner, facing judgement and Hell (based on previous seeds planted) and they are ready to receive Grace. Grace will then make sense and they forsake sin and follow Christ. PTL!

Yet, Stonecroft also shares unbiblical psychology as a means to draw people to Christ vs conviction and repentance based on the law, sin, judgement and Hell. This is a foundational error that plants an unbiblical seed. Thus the reason people pray is to "Jesus will make their life" better versus them forsaking sin and following Christ. Notice Stonecroft's website gospel message doesn't even match the sinner's prayer?

Not telling people these important biblical truths of law, sin, judgement and hell and replacing it with man's wisdom is sin and the bible states we are all accountable for the message (or emphasis) we choose to share. I initially denied this error for quite some time but as I was lead to prayerfully study the scriptures, I was horrified when the Lord showed me this and I humbly repented.

These are difficult truths to relay especially in a time when the norm is not to preach the bad news (law, sin, judgement, hell) replaced with Psychology along with the good news of grace. Also, watering the message down in order to not offend people is sin.

The bible says "The cross is foolish to those who are perishing." "God opposes the proud and gives grace to the humble." Proud sinners are offended when they realize their sinful condition (and God opposes them). Yet, when proud sinners become humble sinners through conviction of sin based on the word of God, God give graces to be received.

The gospel, based on the full counsel of God, was offensive. This is why so many disciples were martyred. For us to choose "another means" and not show sinners their sin and it's consequences is unbiblical.

Joyce, my prayer is the leaders at Stonecroft to be on bended knee, going before the Lord asking for wisdom to reveal the truth to your hearts. Reread the Gospels and the book of Acts and you will clearly see how the full counsel of God is used to bring sinners to Christ. We are in the latter times and Jesus is returning for a bride without spot or wrinkle. May we be lead as Bill Bright to humbly confess and repent of the error. The devil desires us to fear him and go on in his deception but we are to fear the Lord and repent so He can use us to bring His true Gospel.

Please let me know your thoughts concerning the above as well as the below items. If you feel the below items are biblical, please provide the biblical foundation for these.

1. Stonecroft's use of "Psychology" in place of the moral Law, Sin, Judgment & Hell? How does Psychology (man's wisdom without God) to bring about the knowledge of personal sin leading to conviction and repentance, knowledge of the judgment to come and the consequences of sin which is Hell?
2. Stonecroft's use of the Good News Bible; proven to be a corrupt translation.
3. Stonecroft's participation in Ecumenicalism (which will lead right into the One World Government and Religion)
4. CBPW Outreach Results

Respectfully, Christine

Received No Response from Joyce Courtney

The following are comments to me from local leaders, who initially agreed to send the paper to Stonecroft.

A local Regional Administrator shared she had been in contact Robbie Nelson, Joyce’s assistant. Stonecroft felt Joyce’s written response was adequate. She relayed Stonecroft’s guidelines for resignation including "quietly" resigning if you no longer agree with Stonecroft’s Statement of Faith. The Statement of Faith is very misleading to the undiscerning.

A local Regional Representative chose to continue in the ministry. She admitted she’s not in her Bible much and is unable to discern whether the paper is accurate. She’s was very busy serving and learning other things.

The preceding Chairperson e-mail response included: "We miss you of course and discussed the information you provided and the response. All three of us agree with your position on Stonecroft being soft on sin. The extent of that message in the context of personal testimony was varied. Take care, I appreciate your prayers."

In other words, speakers personal testimonies vary in the extent of the message of sin. This is true; a few speakers do mention actually names types of sin yet Stonecroft’s mandated Speaker Guidelines DISAGREE with this. Speakers are to avoid mentioning sin but rather share the false teaching of "unmet needs".

One of my responsibilities as Chairperson, was the evaluate speakers according to Stonecroft guidelines. When I began seriously evaluating speakers testimonies according to the Bible, I think I only remember two speakers that specifically named types of sin. Of these two speakers, a local leader stated their testimonies were too preachy.

Regarding the discernment paper, I’ve observed a lack of agreement with the paper once these leaders learned of Joyce's response. Also, I noted that once they learned I started attending a fundamental Bible believing church, I observed there wasn't any interest in further comparing Stonecroft’s error with the scriptures. Note: my discussions with several local leaders addressing Stonecroft’s error occurred atleast six months before I attended the new church.

Also, after the Regional Administrator shared how I was to "quietly resign", I posed numerous questions regarding what the Bible states vs what Stonecroft mandates. Her responses repeatedly avoided the questions and turned to telling me "The Lord will provide you a ministry that matches your beliefs". Well, I believe all of the Bible.... the question is do you?

It's important not to allow our love for serving in a ministry to override our love for the truth based soley on God's Word. When we "love" a ministry more than we love God's commands and principles that direct us in how we are to worship, serve and share His gospel, we are committing idolatry.